Below is a transcription into English of an interview in Dutch with a Dutch lady, Rose. Interviewed by Dene Jones in May, 2004, Rose describes what she experienced at the home of Pat and Barry Jeffery, the materialisation medium Rita Goold, and the hotel she stayed at 1982 in Leicester, England.
Also present in Leicester was Gwen Byrne. Rose met Gwen at Stansted Hall, the Arthur Findlay College that was left by Findlay for scientific study of the afterlife. As a result of this meeting, Gwen invited Rose to her house. Rose subsequently became a member of Rita Goold's circle, of which Gwen and Pat and Barry Jeffrey were already members.
...I went to Stansted Hall with a friend, every weekend they have a demonstration, and that is where I met Gwen. Gwen invited me to her house, and we clicked straight away. While I was at Gwen's house she received a telephone call. It was Rita, she said to Gwen, "you have a visitor from Holland and it has been said in the circle by Helen Duncan[#1] that you should bring this lady along".
Nobody knew this, they [Gwen and Alf] didn't know that they would be taking me with them; we'd never met before! So through Rita, Helen asked Gwen to take me with her... but I said I had to go home because I had to go to work on Monday!
I was very curious, I had the feeling that I should go [to the Circle]. They proceeded to tell me more about the circle and this made me even more curious.
Eventually I said, ok, I'll go back to Holland and ask my boss for a week's holiday. So that's what I did, I came back to England on the following Friday. After I arrived we went to meet Rita. I had no idea what was going to happen there. They had told me roughly, but you can't conceive what it's like if you've never had the experience. Rita gave us a warm welcome. Then we went to Pat and Barry's house. There I met a journalist from an English newspaper, Alan Cleaver, and together we examined the room in which the sitting was going to take place to make sure that there was nothing suspicious or that the room was rigged in some way. We did this by checking the walls to make sure they were solid, that there no secret doors or wires present in the room. After doing this we were satisfied that there was nothing unusual about the room.
After a while we all went into the room and sat in a circle. There were about seven or eight of us, the light was turned off and the windows were blacked out with some kind of black material. It was so pitch black that I found it very strange. I knew a bit about this sort of thing, but I had no idea of what was about to happen. We were sitting holding hands[#2], there was a small table in the middle with a trumpet and a drumstick on it. I couldn't believe what happened next.
The drumstick started flying around the room at such a speed, and with a changing of speed, direction and height, that it was impossible that someone, or some contraption in the room was making this happen, but still I remained sceptical. This sort of thing carried on for a short time and after a while Helen came through using the trumpet (on later occasions she spoke without the trumpet), she said, "Hello Rose, how are you?" "We were in the bloody plane with you."
Helen was referring to the fact that my plane journey from Holland was very bumpy due to a heavy storm. I found this striking because nobody present knew about it. Helen then said to me that we would talk again later, that I should feel welcome and that they were happy that I was there because they had a surprise for me.
The sitting carried on... the voice was clear - and what I find so important is the fact that people have said to me that it was Rita's voice I heard, but that's not possible because I could hear Rita what I can only describe as snoring quietly in the background. I could hear clearly that voice and the snoring were coming from two different directions, and I heard them at the same time. You can't snore and speak at the same time.
I've had a lot of experience of this sort of thing[#3] and I can tell the difference between genuine mediumship and trickery, but still I remained sceptical.
I knew this was genuine; the voice I heard wasn't from any of the others sitting in the circle. Then Russell[#4] came through and spoke to me through the trumpet.
I found this very pleasant, and then I received a present, an "apport". This is an object from spirit; he[#5] won't like me using that word.
Anyway... I received a present - a leather butterfly brooch - and I think the reason for that was, because a butterfly has a special meaning to me and I'll tell you why. When my Ronald was a little boy, he would ask the most profound questions. One day he asked me, "Mummy when people die, where do they go?" What do you say to such a young child? I said that when we are here we are like caterpillars and when we die we are like a chrysalis that after a while releases a beautiful butterfly. Ronald's reply was, "Oh if that's right, then I'll be able to fly to you, mum!" I said yes and thought to myself that's solved that one! Therefore, a butterfly has special significance for us and that's why I was given a butterfly. I was very moved by that and found it incredible.
The sitting progressed; Russell was present and getting up to mischief. I had things thrown at me - in a playful manner you understand! He threw screwed up tissue and these were meant to be snowballs. The sitting progressed and then I heard Helen's voice again through the trumpet and this time she said to me, "Rose, are you sitting comfortably? I have something for you." Then I heard Helen say, "Russell, wait a minute!" I could hear Helen and Russell talking to each other. There is no way that Rita could be talking as two people at the same time. Russell was impatient like a typical little boy.
Helen said, "Russell, hang on a minute, I must talk to Rose." Then Helen said, "Ok, go on then." Then I heard Russell say "Hello Rose!"
[At this point Rose spontaneously lowered her own voice to show how she heard Russell's voice.]
I said hello to Russell, he replied, "I have a surprise for you". My reply was oh that's nice. Russell said "I have a friend with me." I said that's very nice for you. "Yes it is!" "My friend says that you are his mother." "Oh yes!" was my reply. I thought to myself, I'll believe that when I see or hear it. "Yes," said Russell, "and he says his name is Ronald" Oh, I said, that's right, my son's name is Ronald! Then Helen interrupted. "Be quiet Russell. Rose, listen, Ronald is here and to be able to do this he has had to have a lot of practice. It is very difficult, but he wants to talk to you." "Is that ok? Can you cope?" My reply was yes, very much so!
On the table in the middle of the circle was a cone-shaped instrument called a trumpet. You could see it in the dark because it had something on either end which made it visible (luminous paint?) I heard what sounded like heavy breathing and blowing. Helen later told me that this was because they had to build vocal chords. A few moments later I heard "Mammie!" coming from the trumpet! [Mammie is Dutch for mummy.]
My son died when he was a corporal in the army and nobody was allowed to know that he still called me mummy. There was no doubt it was Ronald's voice! The way he said it, in Dutch! I asked, Ron is that you? He answered "Ja!" [Dutch for yes] I then asked him what every mother would want to know. I asked him if he was happy. He said yes! It made me very happy to hear that. We talked further in Dutch, we discussed family matters, we talked about my other son who lives in Spain... no one present could speak Dutch, and even if they could, you would still hear an English accent. Ron said he was happy, and that he was glad that I had decided to come back to England. At that point Helen broke in and said, "Rose, it is not fair to the others if you carry on speaking in Dutch. Can you carry on in English, please?" I said ok and we spoke for a short while in English. Then suddenly I heard music, Helen broke in again and said Ronald would return later.
I inherited a ring from my mother with stone in it that has a matching chain and pendant. I also had a ring on that belonged to Ronald. Suddenly I felt my hand being grasped and Ronald's ring being pushed further up my finger. This happened a few times. I whispered, is that you Ronald? I heard a voice say "yes and your mother is here". Then I felt my mother's ring being pushed further up my finger. It felt the same as when you push your own ring on your finger. I asked in a whisper, is that you mum? I heard the reply "yes". Then I felt what felt like hands go inside my blouse; my mother took hold of the stone on the hanger and tapped it against my chest a few times. I thought this must my mother because it was her pendant, she was pushing it against my chest, no one knew I was wearing this item and they certainly didn't know it's original owner.
Again no one present knew the significance of my jewellery. Apart from that, we hadn't known each other long enough to have talked about such personal matters. They certainly didn't know anything about Ronald being a corporal in the army, but Helen and Russell knew this and talked about it. When Helen came back she said, "Ronald is a born leader and he showed this when he was in the army. The corporal is no longer an ugly duckling, he has become a beautiful swan". After this we had a break for coffee.
We started again and Raymond[#6] came through.
I could hear the sound of his leather boots creaking. Then I heard Helen's voice say, "Rose, this music is special for you, pay attention." Actually it was my mother's favourite song by Mario Lanza. That came out of the tape recorder. Nobody present could have known this either! Things progressed, and then Helen came in again and said, "Rose, come back tomorrow".
I went back the next afternoon (Saturday). What happened that day was marvellous. I was covered in flowers, beautiful white flowers. They just seemed to come from above and they were so fresh, as if they had just been picked. I don't know what kind of flowers they were, but they had a lovely fragrance, and there were lots of them! I mean, how could this be trickery? We had checked the room; it was small and everything was locked! I have saved some of these flowers; they have become brown over the years. Then Ronald came through again. We talked and danced the clog dance together! Why the clog dance? Well, shortly before he had the accident I taught him how to dance and this was one of his favourite songs. I was also given Liquorice Allsorts, Ronald's favourite sweets. These I have also kept, along with the tissue snowballs from Russell and obviously the leather butterfly.
[At this point, I asked Rose if she could explain exactly how this dancing took place, what she could feel, and what she could see.]
We stood up, we held each other and we danced. I could feel his body and could see him as if he was illuminated by moonlight. It is hard to cope with something like that! It was my own "deceased" son I was dancing with! We danced on and laughed for a bit longer - it was really amazing!
Then suddenly I heard really powerful music. It was a Red Indian, apparently he comes through regularly. He gave me a little book, a lovely little book. He started playing a drum and the sound that came from this drum was tremendous, but it wasn't like loud music from a hi-fi, and it wasn't deafening. It filled the room and I could feel my skirt being moved back and forth by the change in air pressure being created by the drum.
After I'd been to about 6 or 7 sittings, Helen came through and said to me, "Rose, come again tomorrow - tomorrow is especially for you". I thanked Helen and came back the next day.
Gwen and Alf weren't there, but Pat and Barry were present, and also Steven. [Rita's husband at the time] The sitting started in the normal way, after a while I thought to myself, Helen, you said that this evening was especially for me. I didn't actually say this out loud. With that the cassette recorder, which was on the ground, shot across the floor and stopped next to me. I heard Helen's voice say, "Yes Rose, you're right, this is your evening".
The way it works: the way they communicate is not us only with speech, because I had the thought that this would be my evening and she picked it up. Then it began. Steven fell asleep, Rita was in trance and Pat, they were all asleep. Then I saw Raymond's bare feet. He has very big feet. Then I saw the small feet of Russell and then I saw the small feet of Ronald. You could put a thousand before me and I would recognise them straight away. It's remarkable, my eyes filled with tears. It was like looking at a painting, you see the feet and a bit of the leg and as you look further up, it becomes more vague until you don't see anything. And then I saw all three of them in their entirety. First I saw Russell as he is now, as an adult, very nice, sweet man, he was dressed. And then I saw Raymond and guess what, then I saw Ronald... Later Pat, Barry and Steve said they don't know what happened to them. Suddenly they became very sleepy and fell asleep and they asked me what happened. There you see the evening was especially for me, just for me. Oh yes, on one of the first evenings, I think it was the third one, I felt somebody touching my arm and I said is that you Ron? And Helen said no, that's Laura[#7].
And then I felt a stronger hand, then I asked is that Ronald and Helen said yes, yes that's Ronald and I felt the stronger hand grip my arm, that was again remarkable...
When you get back home or to your hotel room, it's just like you are floating on air. It's because the atmosphere embraces you... After one sitting we went back to the hotel, we had arranged to meet each other at a particular time for breakfast. When I got to my room I saw that my bed had been interfered with. My pillow was lying at the foot of the bed, the bedspread was rolled up in a bundle. My thoughts were, that's strange, nobody comes into your hotel room when you're away, when I left the bed was made. It was at that stage that I realized somebody was playing a joke on me and it must the boys, Russell and Raymond...
Anyway I went to bed, when I woke up the next day I looked under the bed for my slippers and I could see something else, I thought that's funny I didn't see that yesterday, and even worse when I looked more closely I could see that it was five different rolled up dirty socks.
This is signficant because I was forever telling my sons that if they had dirty socks, they were to put in them in the washing machine, but not rolled up! Later that day we went to Rita's House, we came in, sat down. Rita had apparently done some washing and she began to tell us that she had lost five different socks in the wash. Well we just looked at each other dumbfounded, Gwen and I... Later on that day Rita found the socks on the table...
[Rose rounded her story off by telling me that at some point she asked her son, "where are you?" The answer she recieved was that he said "I am only a breath away..."]
Helen Duncan was a widely known and well respected materialisation medium who gave many evidential sittings during her physical lifetime. She passed to the etheric world in 1956.
This was in 1982; when Michael Roll attenended the circle in March 1983, the method of communication had done away with holding hands and using trumpets.
Although Rose had attended other 'spiritual' circles, and was familiar with their methods of communication, she had never before witnessed the full-body materialization of an etheric person.
Russell was Gwen and Alf's son, who had died of cancer some 20 years before as a child of nine, and who was a frequent visitor at Rita's circles.
Rose is referring to her son Ronald who had passed on.
Raymond Lodge, the son of the world famous English scientist Sir Oliver Lodge. Raymond was killed in France during the First World War.
Laura Lorraine, Rita Goold's grandmother, a frequent visitor to the circle, who usually materialised as a young lady.
Related material on this site:
A First-Hand Account of Materialisation Mediumship - Michael Roll describes an experiment he attended with the materialisation medium Rita Goold. This account was written in 1983, but was not accepted for publication until 1992.
The Mode of Future Existence - 1933 Lecture by Sir Oliver Lodge FRS (1851-1940)
This article is censored from all large-circulation papers and magazines throughout the world because it links the subject of survival after death with the scientific discipline of subatomic physics - the study of the invisible part of the universe.